Philosphers talk about "gnostic dualism". Sprit is good -- matter or flesh is evil. But there is another side to gnosticism, that being "special knowledge". Basically, salvation can only be achieved by acquiring "special knowledge" - "gnosis". I have used the term "charisgnostic" on occasion to describe all the jargon and fads dealing with apostles, prophets, spiritual gatekeepers, Jabez, Jezebel, Leviathan, and breaker annointings. But every denomination has its own special knowledge. I was inspired when I read Spencer Burke's article about pastoring a "church" without having a church. How encouraging to see his courage!
All denominations tend towards the "gnostic". Methodists are superior to Baptists which are superior to Catholics who are superior to charismatics who better than fundamentalists who are better than Nazarenes who are a whole lot better than Pentecostals who are certainly above the Anglicans who are clearly above the non-denominationals. All 30,000+ denominations ask you to believe their beliefs. Natives know who Creator is and most do not like to be pulled into Gnosticism -- but what choice do we as natives have? Few denominations have the courage to preach the Good News of Jesus without their gnostic distinctives added on. I have rarely seen it tried. just some rambling thoughts... ray+
PS And thanks Spencer, for acting like an Indian! War whoops for you!
Thursday, September 25, 2003
Thursday, September 18, 2003
Building the Kingdom, or a Kingdom of Buildings?
Recently Richard, a Wendat native, penned these thoughts directed to those in the missions industry:
You denomination planting missionaries who come holding blueprints and church building schemes..such big plans you have for us!!!!
go back to your own local communities and look carefully and see if your own people are better people overall...less selfish, less given to greed and power by the same plans you have for us...if they aren't changing anything ,then stay and work with your own people first till they honor our sacred mother,and stop raping and pillaging her like she is some prostitute created for mens pleasure.
This earth herself in her torn beauty is weeping....can't you hear her???? Are people so hardened by human-chaos they are deaf???? SHE herself should be seen as SACRED just by the fact that THE GIFT was planted, born, died and was reborn from her womb! This earth MOTHER is now a Sacred Monument and should be treated as such.
Richard, your works echo the thoughts of Red Jacket, when the missionaries asked permission to preach to his people. It seems that the Western church measures and defines Christianity by a narrow set of definitions.
You have a "successful church" if:
--you have a building, the newer the better
--a certain quantity of people attend -- more people + more success
--people are "tithers" even though only 17% of church members tithe
--the pastors makes a full-time salary with good benefits
Although everyone knows about these standards, few dare ask such questions as
--Is the community any better off because this church is now here?
--Have any lives changed?
--Has repentance occurred?
--Have amends been made?
--Did the liquor store go out of business?
--Are the widows cared for?
--Do the orphans have homes?
--Are the ones in jail and prison visited?
--Are the sick visited and prayed for?
--Are the poor fed?
I remember all the grief that my Cherokee friend Randy Woodley got for proposing a modest 8-sided pole church building for natives. Randy has built this building 3 times. It costs $5000 to build and holds 130 people. It has no utilities but then again has no payments either and little maintenance. But the church people, and even natives, make fun of this because "real churches" have electricity, full kitchens, fiberoptics for the internet broadband connections, and if they are really successful, a video and audio recording studio. Well Randy's church building provides shelter from the rain, ventilation in the heat, a fire pit in the center for a sacred fire, a dry floor and places for everyone to sit. And the view is 360 when the weather is good, but when it is cold, it can be nice and cozy, a shelter from the cold and wind. But it is not a real church because it only costs $5000 and doesn't have a mortgage. Without monthly payments, it creates too many difficult decisions -- what do we do with all the extra money?
Thanks for listening. As you build the native church of Jesus, how do you measure success?
ray+
# posted by Ray @ 9:18 PM
Building the Kingdom, or a Kingdom of Buildings?
Recently Richard, a Wendat native, penned these thoughts directed to those in the missions industry:
You denomination planting missionaries who come holding blueprints and church building schemes..such big plans you have for us!!!!
go back to your own local communities and look carefully and see if your own people are better people overall...less selfish, less given to greed and power by the same plans you have for us...if they aren't changing anything ,then stay and work with your own people first till they honor our sacred mother,and stop raping and pillaging her like she is some prostitute created for mens pleasure.
This earth herself in her torn beauty is weeping....can't you hear her???? Are people so hardened by human-chaos they are deaf???? SHE herself should be seen as SACRED just by the fact that THE GIFT was planted, born, died and was reborn from her womb! This earth MOTHER is now a Sacred Monument and should be treated as such.
Richard, your works echo the thoughts of Red Jacket, when the missionaries asked permission to preach to his people. It seems that the Western church measures and defines Christianity by a narrow set of definitions.
You have a "successful church" if:
--you have a building, the newer the better
--a certain quantity of people attend -- more people + more success
--people are "tithers" even though only 17% of church members tithe
--the pastors makes a full-time salary with good benefits
Although everyone knows about these standards, few dare ask such questions as
--Is the community any better off because this church is now here?
--Have any lives changed?
--Has repentance occurred?
--Have amends been made?
--Did the liquor store go out of business?
--Are the widows cared for?
--Do the orphans have homes?
--Are the ones in jail and prison visited?
--Are the sick visited and prayed for?
--Are the poor fed?
I remember all the grief that my Cherokee friend Randy Woodley got for proposing a modest 8-sided pole church building for natives. Randy has built this building 3 times. It costs $5000 to build and holds 130 people. It has no utilities but then again has no payments either and little maintenance. But the church people, and even natives, make fun of this because "real churches" have electricity, full kitchens, fiberoptics for the internet broadband connections, and if they are really successful, a video and audio recording studio. Well Randy's church building provides shelter from the rain, ventilation in the heat, a fire pit in the center for a sacred fire, a dry floor and places for everyone to sit. And the view is 360 when the weather is good, but when it is cold, it can be nice and cozy, a shelter from the cold and wind. But it is not a real church because it only costs $5000 and doesn't have a mortgage. Without monthly payments, it creates too many difficult decisions -- what do we do with all the extra money?
Thanks for listening. As you build the native church of Jesus, how do you measure success?
ray+
You denomination planting missionaries who come holding blueprints and church building schemes..such big plans you have for us!!!!
go back to your own local communities and look carefully and see if your own people are better people overall...less selfish, less given to greed and power by the same plans you have for us...if they aren't changing anything ,then stay and work with your own people first till they honor our sacred mother,and stop raping and pillaging her like she is some prostitute created for mens pleasure.
This earth herself in her torn beauty is weeping....can't you hear her???? Are people so hardened by human-chaos they are deaf???? SHE herself should be seen as SACRED just by the fact that THE GIFT was planted, born, died and was reborn from her womb! This earth MOTHER is now a Sacred Monument and should be treated as such.
Richard, your works echo the thoughts of Red Jacket, when the missionaries asked permission to preach to his people. It seems that the Western church measures and defines Christianity by a narrow set of definitions.
You have a "successful church" if:
--you have a building, the newer the better
--a certain quantity of people attend -- more people + more success
--people are "tithers" even though only 17% of church members tithe
--the pastors makes a full-time salary with good benefits
Although everyone knows about these standards, few dare ask such questions as
--Is the community any better off because this church is now here?
--Have any lives changed?
--Has repentance occurred?
--Have amends been made?
--Did the liquor store go out of business?
--Are the widows cared for?
--Do the orphans have homes?
--Are the ones in jail and prison visited?
--Are the sick visited and prayed for?
--Are the poor fed?
I remember all the grief that my Cherokee friend Randy Woodley got for proposing a modest 8-sided pole church building for natives. Randy has built this building 3 times. It costs $5000 to build and holds 130 people. It has no utilities but then again has no payments either and little maintenance. But the church people, and even natives, make fun of this because "real churches" have electricity, full kitchens, fiberoptics for the internet broadband connections, and if they are really successful, a video and audio recording studio. Well Randy's church building provides shelter from the rain, ventilation in the heat, a fire pit in the center for a sacred fire, a dry floor and places for everyone to sit. And the view is 360 when the weather is good, but when it is cold, it can be nice and cozy, a shelter from the cold and wind. But it is not a real church because it only costs $5000 and doesn't have a mortgage. Without monthly payments, it creates too many difficult decisions -- what do we do with all the extra money?
Thanks for listening. As you build the native church of Jesus, how do you measure success?
ray+
# posted by Ray @ 9:18 PM
Building the Kingdom, or a Kingdom of Buildings?
Recently Richard, a Wendat native, penned these thoughts directed to those in the missions industry:
You denomination planting missionaries who come holding blueprints and church building schemes..such big plans you have for us!!!!
go back to your own local communities and look carefully and see if your own people are better people overall...less selfish, less given to greed and power by the same plans you have for us...if they aren't changing anything ,then stay and work with your own people first till they honor our sacred mother,and stop raping and pillaging her like she is some prostitute created for mens pleasure.
This earth herself in her torn beauty is weeping....can't you hear her???? Are people so hardened by human-chaos they are deaf???? SHE herself should be seen as SACRED just by the fact that THE GIFT was planted, born, died and was reborn from her womb! This earth MOTHER is now a Sacred Monument and should be treated as such.
Richard, your works echo the thoughts of Red Jacket, when the missionaries asked permission to preach to his people. It seems that the Western church measures and defines Christianity by a narrow set of definitions.
You have a "successful church" if:
--you have a building, the newer the better
--a certain quantity of people attend -- more people + more success
--people are "tithers" even though only 17% of church members tithe
--the pastors makes a full-time salary with good benefits
Although everyone knows about these standards, few dare ask such questions as
--Is the community any better off because this church is now here?
--Have any lives changed?
--Has repentance occurred?
--Have amends been made?
--Did the liquor store go out of business?
--Are the widows cared for?
--Do the orphans have homes?
--Are the ones in jail and prison visited?
--Are the sick visited and prayed for?
--Are the poor fed?
I remember all the grief that my Cherokee friend Randy Woodley got for proposing a modest 8-sided pole church building for natives. Randy has built this building 3 times. It costs $5000 to build and holds 130 people. It has no utilities but then again has no payments either and little maintenance. But the church people, and even natives, make fun of this because "real churches" have electricity, full kitchens, fiberoptics for the internet broadband connections, and if they are really successful, a video and audio recording studio. Well Randy's church building provides shelter from the rain, ventilation in the heat, a fire pit in the center for a sacred fire, a dry floor and places for everyone to sit. And the view is 360 when the weather is good, but when it is cold, it can be nice and cozy, a shelter from the cold and wind. But it is not a real church because it only costs $5000 and doesn't have a mortgage. Without monthly payments, it creates too many difficult decisions -- what do we do with all the extra money?
Thanks for listening. As you build the native church of Jesus, how do you measure success?
ray+
Thursday, September 11, 2003
Are You Sweating or Just Glowing?
Dear Ray, I was looking for spiritual info in regard to the sweat lodge as a Christ centered event. It's my understanding that this is predicated on the specific tribe that is putting the event together. We hope for an understanding what a "sweat" actually is. How hot or humid does it get? We have no idea, and since there have been some recently published deaths involving a sweat, any info here would be appreciated, especially since we have insurance concerns at our Christian campground.
...........................................................................................................
Dear Brother Larry,
As with any "sauna", tempurature and moisture levels vary, but you might want to check with a health club in your area for the average they use. Sweats are similar in temperature but sometimes less, for there is often a lot of talking and discussion that goes on too.
Participation is always voluntary so people can leave if there is any personal discomfort. Water and fruit is always provided for participants, as well as place to cool off in water, usually a stream, river or shower.
It is the leader that determines how a sweat is led, so there are many Christ-centered sweats, and there are others that are more social that believers participate in, and yet others that don't usually invite Christians (because they don't "get along"). If it is at your camp, I can only assume that it would be Christ-centered, much as your pulpits are filled.
There are many different ways of leading sweats. I have never heard of a non-native leading a sweat, except for new-agers who charge money. It is best that you contact the natives in your area, and let them know of your desire to have sweats, and ask if they would help you and teach you. Be prepared to take a gift when you ask for such a favor. If you don't follow this protocol, they will take is as a sign of disrespect and ignorance, and you will probably not get the help you are looking for.
The volcanic rocks used are light and hold heat well. They are called "grandfathers" and are put into the sweat lodge in rounds. In the Cherokee sweat, the "osi", for example, there are 7 rounds of seven "grandfathers". For the Lakota, there are 4 rounds of seven, totalling 28, the number of ribs of the buffalo. So sweats do vary. Some are more prayer and song oriented, others are more social. They are rarely mixed between men and women. Usually there are 2 lodges, one for men and one for women, but sometimes they are shared, but at different times due to both modesty issues and the nature of discussions.
...........................................................................................................
Dear Brother Larry,
As with any "sauna", tempurature and moisture levels vary, but you might want to check with a health club in your area for the average they use. Sweats are similar in temperature but sometimes less, for there is often a lot of talking and discussion that goes on too.
Participation is always voluntary so people can leave if there is any personal discomfort. Water and fruit is always provided for participants, as well as place to cool off in water, usually a stream, river or shower.
It is the leader that determines how a sweat is led, so there are many Christ-centered sweats, and there are others that are more social that believers participate in, and yet others that don't usually invite Christians (because they don't "get along"). If it is at your camp, I can only assume that it would be Christ-centered, much as your pulpits are filled.
There are many different ways of leading sweats. I have never heard of a non-native leading a sweat, except for new-agers who charge money. It is best that you contact the natives in your area, and let them know of your desire to have sweats, and ask if they would help you and teach you. Be prepared to take a gift when you ask for such a favor. If you don't follow this protocol, they will take is as a sign of disrespect and ignorance, and you will probably not get the help you are looking for.
The volcanic rocks used are light and hold heat well. They are called "grandfathers" and are put into the sweat lodge in rounds. In the Cherokee sweat, the "osi", for example, there are 7 rounds of seven "grandfathers". For the Lakota, there are 4 rounds of seven, totalling 28, the number of ribs of the buffalo. So sweats do vary. Some are more prayer and song oriented, others are more social. They are rarely mixed between men and women. Usually there are 2 lodges, one for men and one for women, but sometimes they are shared, but at different times due to both modesty issues and the nature of discussions.
Monday, September 08, 2003
Intuition Is Just Not Good Enough
The death on the cross in not intuitive to people who did not punish criminals by crucifixion. Original sin does not make sense, and is not even a biblical phrase.
I am trinitarian yet trinity does not appear in the Bible, so endless trinitarian metaphors to "explain God" are not all that useful.
But this is quite a shock to people untrained in missiological principles, as taught in hundreds of seminaries and Bible colleges. And it still shocks seminary graduates...
This stuff is not that intuitive! Missionaries just assume it is.
Cross-cultural ministry is a ministry of suffering, of laying down our own lives of comfort and being willing to shed our "identity" in order to become part of another community. The theological word for this is to be "incarnational". And Jesus was a pretty good model for it I think...
I am trinitarian yet trinity does not appear in the Bible, so endless trinitarian metaphors to "explain God" are not all that useful.
But this is quite a shock to people untrained in missiological principles, as taught in hundreds of seminaries and Bible colleges. And it still shocks seminary graduates...
This stuff is not that intuitive! Missionaries just assume it is.
Cross-cultural ministry is a ministry of suffering, of laying down our own lives of comfort and being willing to shed our "identity" in order to become part of another community. The theological word for this is to be "incarnational". And Jesus was a pretty good model for it I think...
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